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    Topic:   Nickname  

    This topic contains 9 replies, has 2 voices, and was last updated by kiwi kiwi 11 months, 1 week ago.

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    • #6740
      grebjiem
      grebjiem
      Participant

      105 posts

      In the gedcom imported from Aldfaer a name is added to the field nickname. I don’t know if that’s the right field to ad this name.
      My name given by birth is Jan Willem, my parents and everybody are calling me Wim. It’s also on the birth-card send to everybody, We have a son Jan Willem, we call him Wim. Must this be added in the nickname field or must I add to the field Also Known As.
      I saw that when the nickname is added, it doesn’t always show up.
      Examples of this are I7939 (see image) and I8071.

      nickname

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      #6748
      kiwi
      kiwi
      Keymaster

      1431 posts

      That raises a number of issues. Hopefully I can explain, but it requires some thought about GEDCOM structure. I strongly recommend you keep a copy handy (https://kiwitrees.net/gedcom-specification/) as it contains the answers to most questions like this.

      1 – In aldfaer names are recorded using the simple GEDCOM format:

      1 NAME Jan Willem /Meijberg/
      2 NICK Wim
      

      2 – In kiwitrees we also record separately the various name parts, and we construct the NAME from those at the same time. This provides greater flexibility for display etc.

      1 NAME Jan Willem /Meijberg/
      2 GIVN Jan Willem
      2 SURN Meijberg
      2 NICK Wim
      

      But the display for both versions of these is the same:
      Name: Jan Willem “Wim” Meijberg

      (Note – if you edit the aldfaer imported name, the GIVN and SURN parts will be created on ‘save’, even if you make no actual changes to the name(s).

      3 – For a nick name to show up in the manner above (in quotes like “Wim”) then it needs to be either:
      a) in the NICK field, or
      b) in the NAME field enclosed within quote marks.
      AND it must not exactly match any part of the NAME or GIVN names (unless in quotes).

      So I8071 has a couple of issues. The GEDCOM data looks like this:

      1 NAME Dirk Jan Willem /Meijberg/
      2 NICK Jan Willem
      

      The NAME tag does NOT include a nickname, because nothing is enclosed by quotes.
      The NICK tag is ignored because it exactly matches part of the given name, so does not really appear to be a true nickname.

      The same applies to I7939
      It does not apply to your own record because your nickname is recorded in the NICK field and it does NOT appear in the NAME field.

      Further information:
      Kiwitrees also allows for an indication of a “preferred name” created by adding an asterix after one part of a given name to indicate that this is the usual or preferred name. For example, my mother was registered as Barbara Joyce Osborne, but always called “Joyce”. But, for complexity, some of her schools friends also called her “Babs”. So her GEDCOM looks like this:

      1 NAME Barbara Joyce* /Waghorn/
      2 GIVN Barbara Joyce*
      2 SURN Waghorn
      2 NICK Babs
      

      That all displays like this:
      Name: Barbara Joyce “Babs” Waghorn

      Using “also known as” (GEDCOM tags _AKA or _AKAN)
      These are technically not true GEDCOM options, which is why they are pre-fixed with “_”. But they are commonly used and therefore accepted by kiwitrees. I would only use them when someone is known by a completely different name for some reason. i.e John SMITH, also known as :Frederick BROWN”. When you enter it in the field you need to enter the complete name, including the surname enclosed in “/…/” (Frederick /Brown/)

      Nigel

      My personal kiwitrees site is www.our-families.info

      #6752
      grebjiem
      grebjiem
      Participant

      105 posts

      I will do some tests before making changes. I think I understand this, but must see how it’s done.

      #6753
      grebjiem
      grebjiem
      Participant

      105 posts

      I have done some tests.
      If I add the name “Wim” enclosed within quote marks, the research links will use Wim as part of the search. No results show up.
      If I add the name “Wim” as nickname, the research links will show the right result.
      But if I add the nickname as “Willem” It isn’t displayed as Jan Willem “Willem” only Jan Willem.
      I can underline Willem using * showing Willem is preferred.
      For me (maybe others too) it is important to handle the names always in the same way.
      Is it possible to fill in the nickname field and this is not showing in the name field enclosed within quote marks? Maybe a checkbox, so it is optional.

      #6754
      kiwi
      kiwi
      Keymaster

      1431 posts

      If I add the name “Wim” as nickname, the research links will show the right result.

      Yes. The other way take too much resource so it is not attempted. Use the NICK field if you need it to be searchable. That is why it exists.

      But if I add the nickname as “Willem” It isn’t displayed as Jan Willem “Willem” only Jan Willem.
      I can underline Willem using * showing Willem is preferred.

      Remeber, aldfaer is very old, and does MANY GEDCOM things badly. Kiwitrees follows the GEDCOM very carefully, and will try very hard not to move away from that specification.

      Yes. If Willem is a real given name then it cannot also be a nick name. It can only be a “preferred name”. . A nick name is NEVER an actual name. That is not the definition.

      For me (maybe others too) it is important to handle the names always in the same way.
      Is it possible to fill in the nickname field and this is not showing in the name field enclosed within quote marks? Maybe a checkbox, so it is optional.

      No. You need a clear understanding of the difference between a nick name and a “preferred name”. Do not muddle the two.

      Nigel

      My personal kiwitrees site is www.our-families.info

      #6755
      grebjiem
      grebjiem
      Participant

      105 posts

      I completely understand this explanation, I think it’s a language/custom difference
      But I will try to explain a little more because I want to add this all in the same way and I ‘m searching for the best solution.

      From wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_name)
      Traditionally there was little difference between the Christian name (doopnaam) and the name used in domestic spheres (roepnaam). If someone’s Christian name was Johannes, domestically he was called Johan, Jan or Hans.

      In my case Christian name/given name is Jan Willem, the name used in domestic spheres is Wim
      My father Christian name/given name Jan Willem, name used is Willem.
      My son Dirk Jan Willem name used Jan Willem

      Other example, man given name Mense, (roepnaam) Menno, but nickname in the family is Mennie

      If I search for translation of the dutch word roepnaam, nickname shows up, also given name and usual name. (Even calling name shows up. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/calling_name.

      So I have different options.
      1 Make a mix of preferred names and nicknames and make a Faq to explain how the display is done.
      2 Make a note of the roepnaam
      3 use the AKA field
      What would you suggest?

      #6758
      kiwi
      kiwi
      Keymaster

      1431 posts

      So I have different options.
      1 Make a mix of preferred names and nicknames and make a Faq to explain how the display is done.
      2 Make a note of the roepnaam
      3 use the AKA field
      What would you suggest?

      I think that 1 is the right solution; 2 can help; you should avoid using APK as much as you posibly can; an option 4 (below) might also help; plus a small code change I have just made. Further details:

      1 Make a mix of preferred names and nicknames and make a Faq to explain how the display is done.
      In any dictionary I look at “roepnam” definitely translates as “nickname”. The GEDCOM definition (which we need to rely on totally) is:

      A descriptive or familiar name that is used instead of, or in addition to, one’s proper name.

      The difference between a nickname and a preferred name is that a nickname is different from any of the given names, whereas a preferred name is the same as at least one of them.

      There is a small issue when there is more than one preferred name, as in the case of your son Dirk Jan Willem. You can add the asterix to both names:

      Dirk Jan* Willem* /Meijberg/

      but at present the display looks “odd”:
      Dirk Jan Willem Meijberg (note: space between names not under-lined)

      However, I have just added a little piece of code that will connect consecutive preferred names into one:
      Dirk Jan Willem Meijberg

      When writing an FAQ you might need to separate instructions for USING the two different options from READING and UNDERSTANDING the display of them.

      2 Make a note of the roepnaam
      Notes are often useful to explain anything like this. But use it WITH 1, not instead of.

      3 use the AKA field
      As mentioned in my first reply _AKA and _AKAN (both valid, and originating from different software) are not officially part of GEDCOM. Therefore I recommend you do NOT use them unless there is absolutely no alternative. Any data recorded outside the GEDCOM specification stands a high risk of being ignored, broken, or deleted by software that doesn’t recognise it or has it’s own alternative.

      4. Use multiple names
      The is an important option we have not previously mentioned. You can add as many names to an individual as you want. (Edit menu, “Add name”)
      The first name listed in the data is defined as the primary name, and is the one generally used for display on charts etc.
      Each name has the option to include a TYPE tag which explains exactly its purpose. Normally the primary name is the “birth name”. Some people include that as a TYPE too, but most view that as being “obvious and unnecessary”, just using TYPE for all other types. The standard list of name TYPEs in the GEDCOM specification are:
      aka = also known as, alias, etc. (e.g. a professional name or a stage name)
      birth = name given on birth certificate.
      immigrant = name assumed at the time of immigration.
      maiden = maiden name, name before first marriage.
      married = name was persons previous married name

      To these kiwitrees adds:
      adopted = name given to a child by its adoptive parents
      change = name chosen by an individual, to replace their existing name (whether legal or otherwise)
      religious = name taken when entering a religion or a religious order

      So, in summary, my suggestion is to use your option 1 whenever possible (with notes and / or FAQ if required), and then use 4 for rare additional cases.

      Nigel

      My personal kiwitrees site is www.our-families.info

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      #6761
      grebjiem
      grebjiem
      Participant

      105 posts

      In the dutch translation I will change bijnaam to roepnaam. I think this will help future dutch users as well and that they will use it almost always as the field to add roepnaam.

      #6764
      kiwi
      kiwi
      Keymaster

      1431 posts

      I’m very happy to leave that choice to you. I have seen many discussions about those two words, but in English I don’t believe there is any similar comparison. For us “nickname” serves both uses.

      If there were two fields, one for “bijnaam” and one for “roepnaam” it would be very confusing in English (and many other languages), as both translate to “nickname”.

      It is an area where the GEDCOM specification shows its strongly American roots!

      Nigel

      My personal kiwitrees site is www.our-families.info

      #6765
      kiwi
      kiwi
      Keymaster

      1431 posts

      Thinking more…..

      Perhaps the closest comparison in English would be “pet name” vs “nickname” as described here:
      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickname

      Still not something we can change in kiwitrees, but interesting just the same.

      Nigel

      My personal kiwitrees site is www.our-families.info

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