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    Topic:   Families list  

    This topic contains 19 replies, has 2 voices, and was last updated by macalter macalter 1 year, 1 month ago.

    Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 20 total)
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    • #6759
      macalter
      macalter
      Participant

      536 posts

      I’ve missed entering quite a few marriage dates so I did a list of families for the surname in question. Under “Marriage”, I see a few dates and all others say “No”. What’s the No? Where there is no date, should it not be “Yes” for married? I thought it meant I had forgotten the check but then, that’s automatic if nothing is entered.

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      [updated: 22 May 2017]

      #6763
      kiwi
      kiwi
      Keymaster

      1449 posts

      When you add a marriage to a family record the “yes” option is ticked by default. It is ignored if there is a date or a source, but will otherwise display “yes” in the Families list.

      To get a “no” in the list requires a deliberate decision to untick that “yes” option, AND not to enter a date or source.

      So, if you feel you did not untick that box (and are you sure?) then it would suggest a problem.

      Please provide the full GEDCOM data for a family record that displays the “no” in the marriage column of the families list.

      EDIT: remember that a “family” can be created without a “marriage”. That is the most common reason for the “no” appearing in the Families list. Creating a family should never ASSUME that is is the result of a marriage. You need to specify that a marriage occurred, other wise the assumption is that it hasn’t.

      Nigel

      My personal kiwitrees site is www.our-families.info

      #6769
      macalter
      macalter
      Participant

      536 posts

      I checked 4 couples and they have no dates but do have a source and one has a place. Not sure if this is the GEDCOM you want. I just picked my “U” list, all the others are similar. Regarding your EDIT note, I’d not intentionally uncheck anyone as married. I’ve never tried to use that method to join two people who aren’t married but are together. I’ve used the other codes.

      LETTER U (just so I can refer back later) all show NO for married. All are married.
      1 WIFE @A11218@
      1 HUSB @A11217@
      1 MARR Y
      2 SOUR @S224@
      1 CHAN
      2 DATE 31 AUG 2013
      3 TIME 00:21:06
      2 _WT_USER admin
      1 CHIL @A15898@
      1 CHIL @A15900@
      1 CHIL @A18916@
      ——————————————–
      1 HUSB @A18458@
      1 CHIL @A5783@
      1 CHAN
      2 DATE 01 JUL 2013
      3 TIME 14:31:07
      2 _WT_USER admin
      1 WIFE @A18459@
      1 MARR
      2 SOUR @S5334@
      ————————–
      1 HUSB @A5860@
      1 WIFE @A5859@
      1 MARR
      2 SOUR @S3622@
      1 CHAN
      2 DATE 04 FEB 2013
      3 TIME 18:25:49
      2 _WT_USER admin
      1 CHIL @A5872@
      1 CHIL @A5874@
      1 CHIL @A5876@
      ——————————-
      1 HUSB @A18458@
      1 CHIL @A5783@
      1 CHAN
      2 DATE 01 JUL 2013
      3 TIME 14:31:07
      2 _WT_USER admin
      1 WIFE @A18459@
      1 MARR
      2 SOUR @S5334@

      This one has a date from the “C” listing:
      1 WIFE @A17491@
      1 HUSB @A17490@
      1 MARR
      2 SOUR @S3942@
      2 DATE AFT 1921
      1 CHAN
      2 DATE 12 OCT 2014
      3 TIME 06:36:14
      2 _WT_USER admin
      1 RESI
      2 DATE 1956
      2 PLAC Toronto, Ontario, Canada
      2 SOUR @S3942@

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      [updated: 22 May 2017]

      #6770
      macalter
      macalter
      Participant

      536 posts

      I think I may have an answer. When I create new records, I’m probably adding the info and assuming it means / born / died, which it does. However, when I add the date/place for married I usually forget to check off married.

      So, how do I correct offline? Search MARR and add Y? While the record reads as if they are married, obviously the report doesn’t and the GEDCOM isn’t correctly showing the status. Sounds painstakingly time consuming. However, I ran the report to find married couples where I forgot to add the date of marriage, so assume it should be done. If my assumption is corect

      Edit: I thought I may have an answer. No, I don’t. I see when I add the spouse Marriage is already checked.

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      [updated: 22 May 2017]

      #6772
      kiwi
      kiwi
      Keymaster

      1449 posts

      My apologies. The problem is an error in my explanation above. (It was late 🙁 ) I said:

      To get a “no” in the list requires a deliberate decision to untick that “yes” option, AND not to enter a date or source.

      What I should have said was:
      To get a “no” in the list requires a deliberate decision to untick that “yes” option, AND not to enter either a date or place.

      You don’t have either date or place in any of your examples.

      There have been (in past years on webtrees and PGV) some fairly heated debates about whether SOURce should also be allowed as a positive indication of the event (birth, death, as well as marriage have the same issue). The GEDCOM specification is a little ambiguous:

      All GEDCOM lines have either a value or a pointer unless the line contains subordinate GEDCOM lines. In other words the presence of a level number and a tag alone should not be used to assert data (i.e. 1 DEAT Y should be used to imply a death known to have happened but date and place are unknown, not 1 DEAT ).

      (Underlining is my addition for clarity)

      However my preference has always been to NOT allow source to confirm these events, as, for example, it could signify nothing more than that the couple were “together” rather than legally / religiously married. We should always err on the side of caution and not imply anything not well proven. A date or place when and / or where the event took place is such proof.

      Edit: That does leave two of your examples as “odd”. The first where you have 1 MARR Y which I “think” should result in “yes”, and the last where you do have a date 2 DATE AFT 1921. Again, this “should” result in “yes”. I will look at the code to see what the issue with these is.

      Nigel

      My personal kiwitrees site is www.our-families.info

      #6773
      macalter
      macalter
      Participant

      536 posts

      the examples I gave all have a Source and some dates. By default when adding spouse Marriage is checked and I’ve never unchecked it.

      Normally when I know for sure the couple weren’t married but had a child, I’ll change MARR to _NRM or _CML. But never knew to uncheck MARR.

      So, where does that leave me? I just checked the family name I’m adding a lot of members too. ALL have Source, NONE were deliberately unchecked for MARR. They state NO for married.

      No dispute about your explanation, just want to have the list show as I thought it would.

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      [updated: 22 May 2017]

      #6774
      kiwi
      kiwi
      Keymaster

      1449 posts

      Normally when I know for sure the couple weren’t married but had a child, I’ll change MARR to _NRM or _CML. But never knew to uncheck MARR.

      Good. Don’t change what you are doing. Read the GEDCOM snippet I gave above. It says :1 MARR without ‘N’ AND without DATE AND without PLAC is not valid GEDCOM for anything and shoulld not be used.

      So, where does that leave me?

      Waiting for me to figure out the best solution. From what I can see so far what happens now is what has always happened (still does in webtrees as well!). Not saying it’s right, just that it’s been this way for ever. The code does not seem to be doing what you (and me) think it should.

      Nigel

      My personal kiwitrees site is www.our-families.info

      #6775
      kiwi
      kiwi
      Keymaster

      1449 posts

      Just another thought – and probably the reason the issue has never been raised before. I think it is questionable whether a MARR event should be added at all if you don’t have either a date or pace to prove it happened. Without those facts you seem to be recording an un-proven assumption that is not good genealogy.

      Nigel

      My personal kiwitrees site is www.our-families.info

      #6777
      macalter
      macalter
      Participant

      536 posts

      if that rationale is held for marriage, so too it should be for birth, death and any other event. Yet, I know my cousins married for example. I know their spouses names. I just don’t know where/when. Does that mean I don’t record them? I don’t record all my second cousins births even if I don’t know where/when?
      Gee, that would mean not marking my grandparents married. I still can’t find where/when. But there were 7 kids that knew they were.

      So, there’s wee problem of “good genealogy” and reality?????

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      [updated: 22 May 2017]

      #6778
      kiwi
      kiwi
      Keymaster

      1449 posts

      True, but I didn’t explain myself very well. Yes, of course you can record those events by the use of the “Y” if you wish (1 MARR/BIRT/DEAT Y”), but my personal belief is that if you do so it should be accompanied by either a source or a note that explains and justifies your assertion – even if it just gives you as the source and your assertion that “I know it happened”. At least that way in 20yrs time or more one of your heirs can read it and know how you came to the conclusion they were actually (legally) married.

      But I also think you are confusing “married” with “together”. If you can’t find a date or place for your grandparents wedding, and (I assume) none of those 7 children were actually at that event how do any of them REALLY know there was a marriage? So you can certainly record them as a couple but can you really record a marriage?

      I have plenty of examples where parents never married, and never admitted to that until extremely late in life, if at all. They simply let everyone assume they were married. I believe my own gt grandmother to be an example of that in respect of her second husband (after my gt grandfather died). All census documents describe them as “married” but that is just what an enumerator recorded. There is no evidence (documentary) that a marriage actually took place.

      Nigel

      My personal kiwitrees site is www.our-families.info

      #6779
      kiwi
      kiwi
      Keymaster

      1449 posts

      Now, back to the original problem. Looking at the (quite old PGV) code for the Families list, the part where no/yes is displayed for marriage may be a bit simplistic:
      1 – If a date exists it displays it.
      2 – If a “_NMR” (not married) tag exists it displays “no” (but see later comment)
      3 – If a MARR (married) tag exists it displays “yes”
      4 – Otherwise it displays a blank space.

      There is no check on WHAT information either the _NMR or the MARR tags actually contain, which is not ideal.

      There are still two other issues:
      1 – How did your MARR tags lose their “Y”? It is ticked as “Y” by default. If you add a place or a date (only) it is removed, but it is NOT removed if you just add a source. So is it possible you added a place or date then subsequently removed it / them? So far I can’t find any other explanation for that.

      2 – The one with a date “AFT 1921” shoulld display that. I strill need to find out why it isn’t.

      The problem is that

      Nigel

      My personal kiwitrees site is www.our-families.info

      #6780
      macalter
      macalter
      Participant

      536 posts

      Sadly, the direct 7 are all deceased. I’ve joked with the children/g’kids (ie: cousins/2nd cousins) that maybe there never was a marriage! I know all my cousins married. I know the 2nd cousins that did so too. It’s when it gets further afield of course, you can’t assume.

      Maybe I should clarify — I picked Families. I picked to display all from a particular name. I clicked “Married” from the row below number found. That’s where I see “no”. Some list people I don’t know personall, some are as close as first cousins. So, those I KNOW FOR SURE were married. T

      ALL have sources. Only time I usually enter no source is if the source of event doesn’t show death but it’s > 96 years (my setting for death).

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      [updated: 22 May 2017]

      #6781
      macalter
      macalter
      Participant

      536 posts

      Okay, I am actively entering records. So, for those that are married and I only know Place, will do a double check for the 1 MARR Y. Then do the list and see. Given that you’re saying a Source doesn’t trip the Y.

      Strangely, I’ve seldom used Families list but thought that would easily find the people I missed adding dates where it was recorded in Reunion but not copied over.

      Actually, just logged into PGV. Marriage ? (note there is a ?) shows YES for marriages without date. Same ones that now show NO in kiwitrees.

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      [updated: 22 May 2017]

      #6782
      kiwi
      kiwi
      Keymaster

      1449 posts

      Strangely, I’ve seldom used Families list but thought that would easily find the people I missed adding dates where it was recorded in Reunion but not copied over.

      Ahha. Could that be part of the issue? Did you copy these family records from Reunion? If so, and there was no “Y” when imported then that will answer the question of how you come to have them missing now.

      Regarding the record with the date “AFT 1921”, I can’t reproduce that problem, and can’t see any reason for it to happen. Are you certain that one is displaying “no” instead of the date?

      Nigel

      My personal kiwitrees site is www.our-families.info

      #6783
      macalter
      macalter
      Participant

      536 posts

      No, I only paste in the data, not code.

      The “aft 1921” is okay.

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      [updated: 22 May 2017]

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