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ForumSupport for kiwitrees
Authorkiwi
Last activity1 week ago
StatusOpen
Replies17
Voices4
Participantskiwi, macalter, clandav, jacoline
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Kiwitrees on Twitter

    Tagged: ,

    Topic:   A question about privacy  

    • This topic has 17 replies, 4 voices, and was last updated 1 week ago by kiwikiwi.
    Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 18 total)
    • Author
      Posts
    • #11020
      kiwikiwi
      Keymaster

      1846 posts

      I had a discussion this week with a kiwitrees user about the privacy setting “show to visitors”.

      It reminded me that many people misunderstand the meaning of “visitors” in this context. For clarification it is:

      The user cannot access the private data in this family tree

      If you think about it, that means a “visitor” has no greater access rights than a casual browser EXCEPT that the “visitor” is registered, and logged in, to your site.

      This is a user classification introduced in the first release of webtrees, many years ago. Its main purpose was as a default for users allowed to “self-register”, with no approval from an administrator required. It ensured that administrators could review the registration before they allowed the new user full “member” status or greater freedoms.

      But when I created kiwitrees, that “self-registration” feature was one of the first thinks to be removed. It is a dangerous option and can cause major headaches with heaps of random or spam registrations.

      So, my question is: Does anyone deliberately use the “show to visitors” setting anywhere? If so, where, and does the explanation of its function change your logic for using it at all?

      My reason for asking is that I can’t think of a good reason for keeping it, and would, therefore, look to remove it from future releases.

      That would simplify privacy settings to:
      Show to members
      Show to managers
      Hide from everyone

      Nigel
      My personal kiwitrees site is www.our-families.info
      #11021
      macaltermacalter
      Participant

      653 posts

      I use it for unregistered visitors/casual browsers to the site. And to not have certain modules available to those unregistered. When going through the modules, I ask if I want unregistered visitors/casual browsers to access or those who’ve registered.
      Right now privacy is set to “visitors”, maybe that needs to be changed. to members. And/or the term “visitor” to “unregistered”.

      -----
      [updated: 12 Nov 2019]
      MacOS: 10.11.6  (El Capitan)
      Safari  11.1.2;  Firefox 69.0.2
      PHP 7.2 Fast CGI

      Alter-Drukarsh connections... 3.3.6 <private>
      The Royals 3.3.6 <royals.rbcsolutions.ca>
      The Gerrer Rebbes 3.3.6 <public via A-D connections...>

      #11022
      kiwikiwi
      Keymaster

      1846 posts

      Great feedback, thanks.

      But let me add a little more explanation…

      When you set access to anything, such as menus, modules, etc, as “show to visitors” what you are actually setting is “show these only to registered visitors or higher.

      So – do you actually have any users with their user role set to “visitor”?

      • If you don’t, then, in reality, you are giving access only to “members” (or higher), the next level higher than “visitors”, because no actual “visitors” exist on your site.
      • If you do have registered “visitors” (rather than “members”), then I need to understand why before I think about removing the role.
      macalter wrote:Right now privacy is set to “visitors”, maybe that needs to be changed. to members.

      Yes, that would be my plan if I go ahead with the change. Anywhere currently set to “show to visitors”, or any user designated as “visitor”, would be changed to “show to members”, or “member”, automatically during the upgrade. The term “visitors” would no longer be required anywhere within kiwitrees.

      Nigel
      My personal kiwitrees site is www.our-families.info
      #11023
      macaltermacalter
      Participant

      653 posts

      Seems there’s a terminology misunderstanding as I’ve always deemed “visitor” to mean anyone showing up at my site and trying to view records. NOT someone who’s emailed me and I’ve granted them “visitor” status — of which I’ve never known existed in that way.

      When I say my The Royals site doesn’t need username/password, then I set everything to visitor. Dead or alive, unrestricted. Modules are set to visitors or above for most everything.

      However, my Alter-Drukarsh site requires username/password to see beyond dead people. Dead being more than 96 years if I recall. Modules are set to members or above except for things like seeing the home page and the login.

      Sounds like we’re on different pages.

      -----
      [updated: 12 Nov 2019]
      MacOS: 10.11.6  (El Capitan)
      Safari  11.1.2;  Firefox 69.0.2
      PHP 7.2 Fast CGI

      Alter-Drukarsh connections... 3.3.6 <private>
      The Royals 3.3.6 <royals.rbcsolutions.ca>
      The Gerrer Rebbes 3.3.6 <public via A-D connections...>

      #11024
      kiwikiwi
      Keymaster

      1846 posts

      Sounds like we’re on different pages.

      Not at all. You have confirmed that I can remove kiwitrees’ setting “show to visitors”, replacing it with “show to members”, and your site will work exactly as it does now.

      The fact that you, and others, are confused by the term ‘visitors’ as used by kiwitrees is exactly why I raised this subject. I want to remove the confusion.
      Your understanding of “visitors” is perfectly reasonable. The problem is that kiwitrees uses a different definition. I want to fix that, by changing kiwitrees.
      Your explanation is very helpful.

      Nigel
      My personal kiwitrees site is www.our-families.info
      #11025
      macaltermacalter
      Participant

      653 posts

      It’s not only kiwitrees but its predecessors obvioulsy had the confusion of terms, and that’s now 12+ years 🙂

      If you interpret what I am doing to mean go ahead, perfect. Confused or not, it means that my settings are okay for purposes I want. And the update containing the change doesn’t change that, will only appear with different words.

      -----
      [updated: 12 Nov 2019]
      MacOS: 10.11.6  (El Capitan)
      Safari  11.1.2;  Firefox 69.0.2
      PHP 7.2 Fast CGI

      Alter-Drukarsh connections... 3.3.6 <private>
      The Royals 3.3.6 <royals.rbcsolutions.ca>
      The Gerrer Rebbes 3.3.6 <public via A-D connections...>

      #11026
      kiwikiwi
      Keymaster

      1846 posts

      It’s not only kiwitrees but its predecessors obvioulsy had the confusion of terms, and that’s now 12+ years

      Almost correct. Greg introduced it, against my (and others) advice in a very early version of webtrees, in 2010. It was never part of PGV.

      Nigel
      My personal kiwitrees site is www.our-families.info
      #11027
      macaltermacalter
      Participant

      653 posts

      If you remove “visitor” and use “member”, how will I (as a new user) know the difference for no username/password (casual viewer) or with username/password (registered) required to use a feature?

      -----
      [updated: 12 Nov 2019]
      MacOS: 10.11.6  (El Capitan)
      Safari  11.1.2;  Firefox 69.0.2
      PHP 7.2 Fast CGI

      Alter-Drukarsh connections... 3.3.6 <private>
      The Royals 3.3.6 <royals.rbcsolutions.ca>
      The Gerrer Rebbes 3.3.6 <public via A-D connections...>

      #11028
      kiwikiwi
      Keymaster

      1846 posts

      If you remove “visitor” and use “member”, how will I (as a new user) know the difference for no username/password (casual viewer) or with username/password (registered) required to use a feature?

      Same as now, surely. This is what casual viewers see at your Royals site:

      Screenshot-2019-11-06-18.03.43

      The casual viewer has to read your message about not needing a user name/password. Also, there is no link shown to request a user name and password on the login block.

      Changing settings from “show to visitors” to “show to members” will not change anything there. BOTH of those settings (now) only apply to people who are logged in.

      Nigel
      My personal kiwitrees site is www.our-families.info
      Attachments:
      #11031
      clandavclandav
      Participant

      169 posts

      Does anyone deliberately use the “show to visitors” setting anywhere?

      Yes – I use it extensively – in Admin-Modules- Blocks, Charts, Lists, Reports, Menus .. etc to mean ‘ Show to anyone who accesses the site’ (I have to admit that I had never realised that a ‘visitor’ was a category of registered user but treated the term to mean ‘casual Internet browser’). I have just logged out and checked a few things which are set up as ‘show to visitor’ e.g. sidebar sections, and they are visible to me as a non-logged in user, as intended. However, if you act as I believe you have proposed and change ‘show to visitors’ to ‘show to members’ this will not produce the same result at all. Surely we need to have a category which means ‘show to everyone’ and that’s the way ‘show to visitors’ appears to work for me at present. I have a feeling that I have misunderstood something here!

      Ron in France
      Website: https://clan-davies.kiwitrees.net/
      kiwitrees 3.3.6; PHP 7.2.17

      #11032
      kiwikiwi
      Keymaster

      1846 posts

      I have just logged out and checked a few things which are set up as ‘show to visitor’ e.g. sidebar sections, and they are visible to me as a non-logged in user, as intended. However, if you act as I believe you have proposed and change ‘show to visitors’ to ‘show to members’ this will not produce the same result at all.

      Unfortunately, some very old modules don’t respect the access level settings! That’s part of the confusion, and yes, it needs to be fixed as part of my proposed change.

      Surely we need to have a category which means ‘show to everyone’ .

      That ‘should’ be achieved by having no specific access set. The settings were supposed to be limiting rules, not enabling ones.

      and that’s the way ‘show to visitors’ appears to work for me at present

      It is inconsistent at present 🙁

      Nigel
      My personal kiwitrees site is www.our-families.info
      #11033
      clandavclandav
      Participant

      169 posts

      That ‘should’ be achieved by having no specific access set. The settings were supposed to be limiting rules, not enabling ones.

      I’m not sure I follow that Nigel. Take, for example Admin-Modules-Sidebar settings. I seem to be obliged for each of the five sections to select one of four access levels ‘show to visitors, … Members ..Managers or Hide from everyone’ So is ‘show to visitors’ does not mean ‘show to everyone’ there would appear to be no way of ‘having no specific access set’ This appears also to be the case for Lists, Charts, Reports, etc.
      Have I misunderstood something?

      Ron in France
      Website: https://clan-davies.kiwitrees.net/
      kiwitrees 3.3.6; PHP 7.2.17

      #11034
      kiwikiwi
      Keymaster

      1846 posts

      Have I misunderstood something?

      Not misunderstood, but missing my point. Your examples simply point to the level of inconsistencies in the current system.

      Another example would be:
      If ”Show to visitors” means let everyone see it, why do we have a user role of ”Visitor”?
      The two are contradictory, but both do exist. Hence my question and (I think) the need to clean it all up.

      Nigel
      My personal kiwitrees site is www.our-families.info
      #11035
      clandavclandav
      Participant

      169 posts

      OK – thanks Nigel – I think I understand! But from my undoubtedly simplistic point of view, we just need to drop the registered user category ‘visitor’, ensure that the term ‘visitor’ , wherever it is used, is understood to mean ‘casual Internet browser’ (not unreasonable I think, and seems also to be the way macalter has interpreted it) , then clean up the hopefully few places where the logic does not work that way at present – because all the ones I’ve checked at random seem to work that way.

      Ron in France
      Website: https://clan-davies.kiwitrees.net/
      kiwitrees 3.3.6; PHP 7.2.17

      #11036
      kiwikiwi
      Keymaster

      1846 posts

      Yes, in principle you are right. Unfortunately you are also right that you may be over-simplifying 😊

      But tidying this up will be worth the effort.

      Nigel
      My personal kiwitrees site is www.our-families.info
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